A History of Postpartum Depression in the United States

Kelly Therese Pollock  0:00  
This is Unsung History, the podcast where we discuss people and events in American history that haven't always received a lot of attention. I'm your host, Kelly Therese Pollock. I'll start each episode with a brief introduction to the topic, and then talk to someone who knows a lot more than I do. Be sure to subscribe to Unsung History on your favorite podcasting app, so you never miss an episode, and please, tell your friends, family, neighbors, colleagues, maybe even strangers to listen too.

Kelly Therese Pollock  0:38  
In 1858, French psychiatrist Louis-Victor Marce' published a nearly 400 page monograph on the subject of prenatal and postpartum psychiatric disorders, what at the time were called puerperal insanity. It was an increasingly common diagnosis, and puerperal insanity was reportedly the cause of 10% of the asylum admissions of women in the late 19th century United States. By the early 20th century, though, psychiatrists were questioning whether there was anything unique about the postpartum period. In a 1926 article, psychiatrists Edward A. Strecker and Franklin G. Ebaugh argued that it was more useful to group mental conditions by symptom rather than by cause, calling the postpartum onset of psychiatric symptoms sometimes just, "pure coincidence." Their views proved influential, especially as Strecker rose to prominence, later serving as president of The American Psychiatric Association, and contributing to the first Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, DSM. By the 1950s, as more women were giving birth in hospitals and living in suburbs removed from their extended families, women's magazines started to discuss the baby blues, a term that could mean anything from subclinical unhappiness to severe depression. Dr. Benjamin Spock blamed some of these reactions on women working outside of the home before having children, with, "an illusion of freedom," while, "In motherhood, there is no quitting." Spock's advice, reprinted from his 1946 book all the way through the 1962 version, was, "If you begin to feel at all depressed, go to a movie or to the beauty parlor or go get yourself a new hat or dress." When that wasn't enough, a new class of minor tranquilizers like Miltown, Librium, and Valium could be mother's little helpers. In 1962, an American psychiatrist named James Alexander Hamilton published a book called, "Postpartum Psychiatric Problems," the first 20th century monograph on postpartum mental illness, in which Hamilton hypothesized that thyroid problems were a cause of serious postpartum mental illness, and argued that postpartum psychosis, which he saw as distinct from other psychoses, needed more careful attention. In 1980, psychiatrist Ian Brockington hosted a conference on motherhood and mental health at the University of Manchester, which resulted in Brockington, Hamilton, and several other male doctors forming an interdisciplinary and international organization for the study of maternal health, which they called the Marce' Society, after Louis-Victor Marce'. It was in this same decade that the term postpartum depression came to mean something more than the subclinical baby blues, and instead would become more of an umbrella term for postpartum mental distress, including depression, anxiety, and psychosis. In Santa Barbara, California in 1977 a stay at home mom named Jane Honikman and a group of other moms that she met through the local branch of the American Association of University Women, or AAUW, formed Postpartum Education for Parents, PEP, with a $500 grant from the AAUW and a $300 grant from the Santa Barbara County Department of Mental Health. By the end of the first year, PEP, which held weekly meetings and parent education classes and which ran a hotline that they called a warm line for new parents, reported 550 meeting attendees. By 1980, 40 regular volunteers were running the organization and the warm line. After Honikman wrote an article in a national parenting magazine, women around the country wrote to ask her advice on setting up their own groups, and PEP self published, "A Guide for Establishing a Parent Support Group in Your Community." James Hamilton invited Jane Honikman, whom he had met the previous year, to the 1984 Marce' Conference, which Hamilton hosted in Los Angeles. There, Honikman realized the connection between the clinical language of postpartum depression to the stories that she had been hearing from new moms on the warm line for years. In June of 1987, Honikman hosted a meeting in Santa Barbara of various postpartum depression groups from across the country, where they discussed creating something like the Marce' Society, but for non professionals. As a result, Honikman founded the Postpartum Support International, or PSI, with support and advice from Hamilton. PSI wasn't the first organization of its kind. The openly feminist Pacific Postpartum Support Society was founded in Vancouver, British Columbia in 1971, and Nancy Berthold founded Depression After Delivery, DAD, in New Jersey after her own bout with postpartum psychosis and clinical depression. Although PSI started as the non professional response to the Marce' Society, over time, more and more professionals joined, including a generation of women clinicians who themselves had experienced postpartum mental distress. Ann Dunnewold was already a working psychologist with a PhD, when she had a baby and experienced postpartum depression. When she couldn't find any help within her own profession, she discovered PSI. With another PSI member, Dr. Diane Sanford, Dunnewold gave a well received presentation at an annual conference of the American Psychological Association. But Dunnewold realized it wasn't just mental health professionals who needed to know more about postpartum depression, but also obstetricians and pediatricians. With Honikman, Dunnewold designed trainings for clinicians through PSI, affiliated with the University of California at Santa Barbara extension program. In 1996, Dunnewold was elected president of PSI. PSI is currently headquartered in Portland, Oregon, with volunteer coordinators in every state in the United States and in more than 36 other countries. In the 21st century, advocates pushed for federal legislation to address postpartum mental health. The 2009 Melanie Blocker Stokes Mom's Opportunity to Access  Health, Education, Research and Support for Postpartum Depression Act was folded into the Affordable Care Act, which was signed into law by President Barack Obama on March 23, 2010. Without dedicated funding, though, the legislation was more a symbolic victory than a practical one. The subsequent Bringing Postpartum Depression Out of the Shadows Act was similarly folded into a larger medical research funding bill, the 21st Century Cures Act, signed into law by President Obama on December 13, 2016. Because of the small budget allotted, only seven of the 30 states and territories that applied for funding through the Cures Act received grants for postpartum depression programming, but as of 2022, 25 states had programs that connected obstetricians with mental health professionals to help consult on cases of postpartum mental health issues. Joining me in this episode is Dr. Rachel Louise Moran, Associate Professor of History at the University of North Texas, and author of, "Blue: A History of Postpartum Depression in America."

Kelly Therese Pollock  11:17  
Hi, Rachel, thanks so much for joining me today. Hi,

Dr. RachelLouise Moran  11:20  
Hi, thanks for having me.

Kelly Therese Pollock  11:21  
Yeah, I'm really excited to talk about your book. I want to start by asking how you came to write this book. I think it's your second book, and how you decided specifically to focus on the advocacy side of postpartum depression.

Dr. RachelLouise Moran  11:35  
Yeah, so I was looking for a topic for a second book at the same time that I was pregnant, and because I was pregnant and because I had a history at that time of a history of depression, anxiety, I had been sort of flagged by both my OB and my psychiatrist as a risk. And it was a kind of interesting moment, especially if you've done any history of medicine work or anything like that. The language of risk is a really big deal, and like, what it means, and especially from, like, a feminist perspective, what it means to be at risk to a fetus, what all is going on there. And in my case, it manifests when, even though I was basically fine, as much as anybody can be, emotionally fine in pregnancy, I was fine. And it was all pretty managed. I wanted to go off my meds, and my psychiatrist, who was that time like an older white man, a very like, you know, out of central casting of who a psychiatrist is, he didn't want me to, and I was really bothered by that. At first, it sounded very paternalistic, but a lot of his argument in the end was basically like, "You don't have parents who live in the state. You don't have parental leave at the time, like you at the time didn't have total job security. Like, these are all really big social factors, and because of that, I'm making this medical decision." So all of that was sort of my personal experience that made me think really differently about risk. When did we start constructing things this way? What's going on? And what I came to realize was I was actually in this wildly privileged position as a white, middle class woman with good health care, who could navigate healthcare, who was having a pretty planned and low complication pregnancy. I can't even count the number of postpartum people I've met who would have killed, you know, who would have loved for somebody to have warned them, flagged them, recognized warning signs and symptoms, educated them, anything, right, anything, but I was ignorant and ungrateful and like concerned about what it did mean for me to be considered a risk. So anyway, did the historian thing, started following these questions, and at first, really was following medical literature, and I was looking at different medical journals and changing languages and evolution over time, from like 19th century languages to the present. And I did this for maybe a year or so, and I just got to this point where there were no humans in my work and no no pregnant people and no women. And it was all a history of things, of discussing pregnant and postpartum women and like interpretations of how they felt and things they did, but just not their voices, not their feelings, not their own, as you pointed out, advocacy. And so I kind of had to just do a big method switch to get the evidence I cared about. And it ended up that I did a ton of interviews and oral histories, which was a thing I had to learn. We have a great Oral History Program here, thankfully, and it just changed everything. So I really ended up tracing the story of women's advocacy, men and women's advocacy over the years to define what postpartum depression meant, to bring it into public and medical spheres, and to define and think about what kind of resources women should have. 

Kelly Therese Pollock  15:14  
Could you talk some about that, the project of oral history, like what that actually looks like for people who haven't done that. How many people do you talk to? How you know, I assume there's a whole lot more that doesn't end up in the book. How do you keep track of all of it? How do you find people that that sort of overview of the process?

Dr. RachelLouise Moran  15:33  
Yeah. So it was really an interesting situation, in part because of when I say I did oral history, people assume that I talked to women who had experienced postpartum depression, and well, what ends up happening is that plenty of people who become psychologists focused on maternal mental health were women with postpartum depression, and some, plenty of people who become involved in the advocacy had depression or psychosis. You know, I wasn't specifically looking for patient stories, which is a very complicated legal process, and it's just like a really different story. You have to think about representation in different ways. I was just following the actors who were sort of more prominent actors. So I was interested in first, psychiatrists and psychologists who had clearly had a big influence, and then I became more interested in people who were specifically on the advocacy side. And as I do talk about a lot in the book, the lines between these things are incredibly thin in the world of postpartum mental health care. There's tons of collaboration between psychiatry, obstetrics, and advocacy work, and people who are sort of lay advocates. But in any case, I did most of them over Zoom for reasons of, you know, money and travel and having kids and all kinds of things. And I did, I suppose, luck out a little bit in that I had begun the process. I had NSF funding, which was very helpful, but I'd begun the process of the interviews right before the pandemic, when nobody knew how to use Zoom. And then as I continued, everybody was happy to be on Zoom. So it became much, much easier to do these things because I had the support of an oral history program. One of the coolest things that happened was that most, though not all, of the people I worked with, agreed to have their transcripts and sometimes their recordings saved. So they are in the Oral History Program at the University of North Texas in the library, and they can be accessed by scholars or anyone you know who pursues them that way. And people have different amounts of time. They ask for three years, five years. A lot of people who are more on the advocacy and advocate side say, like, "I don't care. You know, I tell my story all the time. Just share my story," but some people have waiting periods, and so that, I think, is something really amazing that came out of this. I think the collection is around 30, 31 interviews, and then, you know, I did more than that for the book, but they didn't all, not everybody agreed to the same permissions.

Kelly Therese Pollock  18:23  
So one of the things that I think is interesting about this story is you're really telling kind of a parallel story about how it's through both researchers and clinicians who are starting to recognize that something is happening, starting to think about, how should we study this? What should we call it? What does this all mean? And then also women themselves, who are experiencing something and saying, oh, you know, I want to find other people like this and form a group around it. And then eventually those two groups kind of merge into one. So could you talk us through a little bit, what what these different strands look like? What's happening here?

Dr. RachelLouise Moran  18:59  
Yeah, so what ends up emerging is, I think, a really interesting story about medicalization, but it doesn't sound like some of the stories we have that sometimes demonize that process. I really wanted to figure out why, right? Like, what was going on that made medical languages and medical authority just so appealing to a lot of the women who had these experiences of depression and of psychosis, as a lot of the women who become deeply involved in advocacy had experiences that were closer to psychosis, who had these really life changing experiences. And so what ends up happening in the 1980s in particular is that there's just, there's one really big figure in all of this, who is this physician, a psychiatrist, Dr. James Hamilton, who's really invested in postpartum  mental health. And he ends up sort of networked through, through a journalist, through just kind of a weird path, but he ends up networked with a woman who was running a postpartum support group that wasn't even depression oriented. It's just like a postpartum mom's group, and then eventually with another woman who was running one that was depression specific, and they end up really influencing each other in important ways. So from the perspective of these women who had profound experiences, but were not physicians or clinicians themselves, this was somebody who was taking them seriously, who was putting a name to their situation and telling them it wasn't their fault, and who was saying, in fact, specifically, he would say, like, "You are being oppressed by the American Psychiatric Association." Like he had a very strong stance at that point about what was going on, and he gave them a lot of ammunition to think about themselves in this different way, to think about their experiences. And then for him, I mean, he had been doing this sort of advocacy work within the APA and within this professional, this emerging professional society called the Marce' Society, that began in 1980 and he had been just really interested in changing things like the DSM, the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual, like he wanted postpartum illness in there. He wanted it treated differently in the courtroom. But to do all of these things, he essentially saw himself as needing consumer advocates or patient advocates. So he wanted women out there telling their stories, and frankly, from his perspective, I mean, he wanted the most tear jerking stories he could find. He wanted women who'd been wronged by their doctors to tell these honestly, what we call today, like the most victim narrative. He didn't necessarily want them to have an agency narrative, but he wanted these stories out there, really strongly believing that this would be the best path to change, because all his arguments about the literature were not going anywhere. And so in some ways, they were just really in this interesting symbiotic relationship. They were all kind of doing their own thing, like they had their own goals and agenda, but they worked very strategically in this way that interesting kind of it just kind of ends up building what modern advocacy and narratives of postpartum depression end up looking like. There's a lot of contingency involved.

Kelly Therese Pollock  22:43  
I have another podcast where I look specifically at political activism. And so this is something I think a lot about, this idea of defining what it is that they are advocating for, how narrow or broad to make the scope of the ask. And this happens, especially in your later chapters about the more political work, this happens again and again, where they're, you know, maybe they want a whole range of things, but they're focused on a very narrow thing, because they think that's what's achievable. Could you talk some about that and the decisions that these different advocates over time have to make?

Dr. RachelLouise Moran  23:17  
Yeah. So, I mean, there's a lot of complexity. One piece of this is simply how they define postpartum depression, which becomes a messy decision. You know, clinicians today use the phrase PMADs, which is perinatal mood and anxiety disorders. They're not the idea of postpartum depression itself is kind of an antiquated term within medicine, but it's really the sort of popular term that became a catch all. But it's interesting because it also hits at tensions between people who experience postpartum psychosis, people who experience postpartum depression, people who experience and you know, these have really broadened over the years to include anxiety, OCD, PTSD, just like a lot of different possibilities. And so figuring out how you have both a broad base, which is especially things like depression and anxiety, which have which just affect zillions of women, right? Often, their figures are one in seven, one in eight pregnant people. I mean very, very high numbers of people are affected. So you can have this real mass movement come out of this. But on the other hand, you need to have space for some of the most serious cases, which are often things like psychosis, where there's danger, and then in very, very rare cases, but the ones that get attention infanticide, and so you just have this constant tension between postpartum depression is very common, very treatable. It's nothing to be ashamed of. And then also these situations where the most media attention you can get to your issue is when something truly horrible happens, and that scares women. They don't want to be associated with that. But so there's just like all these tensions that play out, because those are the women who often need the most support. So those are one set of tensions. The other thing that I think you're getting at is just this idea of what the politics of the movement can be and even there, of course, there's not one movement, but the politics of what the issue becomes. Because in many ways, I approach this by thinking about other women's health movements. I thought about advocacy around contraception and advocacy around abortion, and just the incredibly divisive and messy way those play out. And postpartum depression, in part because it emerges in the 1980s as a salient issue instead of earlier, but also in part because of the folks involved and the intensity of the medical partnerships, it has just a different set of political parameters around it. So many of the advocates who become involved are very focused on very mainstream ideas of motherhood still, the idea that you're not necessarily disrupting the institution of motherhood, but figuring out how to restore women to motherhood. And it doesn't mean that they're conservative, though some women were, but it means that in the 80s, especially, you're talking about, how do we make this an issue that people are willing to get behind, especially at the time they were really only thinking about suburban, white, middle class mothers. And so how do we unite these women at a time when, frankly, there's lots and lots of divisions over what motherhood should look like and what it means. And you see all the books at this time do all kinds of weird dances around working motherhood is okay, but also stay at home mother. You know, just like trying really hard to appeal in this broad way, and frankly, medical language was one way to do that because it seemed very objective and like a good approach. This comes up, I guess, later, when I talk about things like, like, lots of people involved in this advocacy want parental leave. They want child care subsidies. They want Medicaid expansion, but they also, in the contemporary context, most of the advocacy groups are very clear that they will not push legislation that's not bipartisan, and they're not going to get parental leave legislation right now that is bipartisan. And so instead, you know, even things like medical screening often become partisan issues. So their advocacy work is, you know, incredible and impressive, but it is done in this very strategic way that has allowed them to seriously mainstream postpartum depression in ways that help so many women, but there are also just built into that lots of limits on how much they can change the institution of motherhood.

Kelly Therese Pollock  28:12  
Let's talk some about race. You mentioned that as this began, it was very much a white middle class kind of framing of the issue, the issue of postpartum depression, psychosis, anxiety, etc, all obviously, also affects women of color, any kind of marginalized women or birthing parents. Could you talk a little bit about how race ends up? Race, of course, becomes more forefront in people's mind in advocacy work as we move toward the end of the time period you're looking at anyway, but how that in particular plays in this?

Dr. RachelLouise Moran  28:47  
Yeah, I talk a lot throughout about the emergence of this imagination of the postpartum woman, which ties into this sort of larger imagination of the depressed woman in the 80s and 90s, which is very based in whiteness and class, based in who can be so publicly vulnerable, based in who can access treatment, based on all kinds of things, but also this, like public imagination of the sort of weeping white woman that is just allowed more space to exist in a way that women of color are not. But what ends up happening in very practical terms is interesting, because although at least since the 90s, there were Black and brown women in these organizations, they were really frequently on the fringes, on the margins, and in no way were discussions of race central to what was going on. So one of the women I end up interviewing talks about how, you know, you would get to the point where they had trainings for postpartum advocacy, and there'd be like a slide that says culture on it, and they mean race, and national status, and all kinds of things. And just like sometimes, culture affects people differently, whatever, and it was coming really just from a place where a lot of these groups start word of mouth and so on, and they just end up in these very insular spaces because of the larger segregation of America. But in interesting ways, I think we see only in the 20 teens, really interesting, really important pushback, and I tell a longer story, but there were two really big postpartum depression organizations in the 20 teens, and one of them, Postpartum Progress, essentially had this explosion over microaggressions, and a woman who was employed by them, but also had been an advocate for a long time for them, in a non paid fashion, wrote, posted a blog about her experiences, and it just sort of set this thing in motion where other women who'd been involved had been, you know, engaged in both the other organization, Postpartum Support International, and in Postpartum Progress and doing their own thing in other places, just really start networking and talking about their experiences, and they create their own group that is relatively quickly folded into Postpartum Support International, the other really big group. The group with the microaggressions problem, just completely folds, essentially over their inability to address the issue, and so and it becomes really just this really important moment for the the advocates who'd been doing this work. There's a really interesting story just about allyship. I think what ended up happening was that, in part, the president of Postpartum Support International, who was a white woman, was very invested in building up and slowly building up advocacy with the three women of color who had come to her really with their organization, and I've interviewed them all, and they've just put together all of this work to really bring issues of race to the front of what's going on in a way that has really transformed Postpartum Support International. So it's not to say that there's not work to be done as we I think we all expect, but that those three women who I do write about in the book and interviewed, that they made it not a a slide, right, but that if you attend, like a Postpartum Support International training like I did, it's it's a thing that's talked about throughout. And I think because we know from a social scientific and scientific standpoint that not only is postpartum depression, you know, just as common in women of color, lots of studies suggest it's more common because you're dealing with additional, you know, social stressors and sometimes other economic stressors and so on. So really addressing these issues has been critical.

Kelly Therese Pollock  33:19  
You mentioned earlier that James Hamilton was trying to find these really weepy stories, and that it is these sensational stories that end up drawing attention, even if those stories themselves are relatively rare. This is not something that happens a lot, but that's sometimes seen as a hook by these organizations that okay, someone's finally willing to talk to us. We can, we can get our message out there. Could you talk a little bit about that tension that obviously there are far more women suffering than ever go through anything really serious, but those serious moments can help people understand what's happening. 

Dr. RachelLouise Moran  33:53  
Yeah. So I end up talking about this a lot in the in the context of TV talk shows. So TV talk shows and then other celebrity tell all moments, but these TV talk shows, especially in the 80s, 90s, Donahue and Oprah were just so important to bringing this idea of postpartum mental illness into people's living rooms, and it was a really big deal to get booked on those shows, and they pushed really hard to get booked on those shows, but getting booked on those shows also required that you'd be able to sell a story. And so, you know, they frequently had somebody with who could at least talk about a severe psychosis. And then often, you know, often, somebody would talk, even if they didn't have somebody who, you know, had committed infanticide, although sometimes they did, but they would have somebody who would say something about feeling like she could have hurt her children, right? So there had to be not only this language of sensationalism and like a true crime element, but there also had to be this clear sense of centering the imagined child, right, as the reason we're doing all of this. And so that was a big part of it, and they would have women tell other stories, but for media purposes, a woman's story of, yeah, I'm not wanting to get out of bed or feeling really depressed or even feeling suicidal, it's not it's not going to fill an hour the same way a woman with hallucinations or other kinds of experiences do, and so that ends up being really central to the framing. And I think the real mainstreaming of postpartum depression, as opposed to psychosis, only happens when you start getting these narratives of celebrity postpartum depression.

Kelly Therese Pollock  36:03  
So another thing I found so interesting, going back to the sort of more political, like in Congress, kind of political, is this idea that it took until there were women in Congress having babies while they were in Congress, before Congress could say, oh, yeah, this is a big idea, and the importance then of representation and representation in a bipartisan way, in this case. Could you just talk a little bit about that? And, you know, I think it tells a larger story then, about why representation in general is important in our elected officials.

Dr. RachelLouise Moran  36:39  
Yeah. So, I mean, I think it's really fascinating when you get to the 20 teens, that's when you start seeing the intensity of this advocacy. So some of the first federal level advocacy starts, I talk about it around 2001 with Melanie Blocker Stokes, who died by suicide that year, and then her mother becomes a really big advocate. And Carol Blocker did all kinds of work with advocacy, with partnering, and just works for ages on legislation, but it's this miserable process where it's going nowhere. It's going nowhere, it gets folded into the ACA, which is incredible, and then not funded. So, I mean, it's a decade of work, and it's just a really grim outcome in the end. That's a little bit of a symbolic victory, but that's it. And then what happens after that is that you do slowly see this work emerge as you have more representation, more women who are in both Federal Congress and who are in state representatives and working at the state level, especially, and like in Massachusetts, there's tons of work around this that starts unfolding in the 2010s. And It's in these spaces where you have women, especially who are mothers, or sometimes who have really important alliances with other kinds other people who simply know someone who has been through a postpartum depression, or someone who is like they would talk about aligning well with somebody even who is a new father, right? But somebody who could think about the parental experience in America, and only then could they start to sort of reach past partisan lines sometimes, which does require, sometimes very conservative language about these parental roles, right? There's still lots of either protective legislation around protecting infants and children, or you sometimes have to do language around protecting the mother. You know, often more than an empowering the mother kind of language, but it's often effective. So there's this really interesting dance that happens there, but there's really interesting, I think, or just really important work that went into getting some of the stuff I talk about at the very end that's emerging, and that's happening now in terms of psychiatric helplines, federal funding for those lines, more resources for Postpartum Support International, but at the same kind of work can't go into, you know, it hasn't gone into postpartum Medicaid expansion at a federal level or something like that.

Kelly Therese Pollock  39:33  
Well, I would like to encourage listeners to read the book. I found it fascinating anyway. I always enjoy political history, but it also made me reflect a lot on my own postpartum experiences and the expansive definition of what depression can mean. In this case, postpartum depression can also mean anxiety, which I hadn't really put together 13 years ago when I was first having a baby. So could you please tell listeners how they get a copy of the book? 

Dr. RachelLouise Moran  39:59  
Sure. You can get a copy through the University of Chicago Press or from any major retailer.

Kelly Therese Pollock  40:08  
Is there anything else you wanted to make sure we talk about?

Dr. RachelLouise Moran  40:11  
I hope I just communicated how important interviews were to me and how much the stories of people just really shaped the story I told, how different it was than what I think I originally imagined I might be telling. Also just how collaborative a lot of these people have been along the way that I've interviewed. The other thing that came out was that so many of them were like, "Oh, I have these papers. Do you want these papers? Oh, I have these letters. You want to see these letters?" And then Jane Honikman had just kept everything, one of these activists that just kept everything. And so I went to her home in Santa Barbara, and she all of her stuff is now in the UC Santa Barbara archives, so it has a good home where other people can hopefully do this work now. So it's felt really important to do this, hopefully as an opening story. So my hope is that lots more people find ways to think about this history and reinterpret this history going forward.

Kelly Therese Pollock  41:10  
Rachel, thank you so much for speaking with me today, and thank you for writing this book now. 

Dr. RachelLouise Moran  41:17  
Thank you so much for having me.

Teddy  41:42  
Thanks for listening to Unsung History. Please subscribe to Unsung History on your favorite podcasting app. You can find the sources used for this episode and a full episode transcript @UnsungHistorypodcast.com. To the best of our knowledge, all audio and images used by Unsung History are in the public domain or our used with permission. You can find us on Twitter or Instagram @Unsung__History or on Facebook @UnsungHistorypodcast. To contact us with questions, corrections, praise, or episode suggestions, please email Kelly@UnsungHistorypodcast.com. If you enjoyed this podcast, please rate, review, and tell everyone you know. Bye!